A Conversation with William Klein, October 2005

In October 2005, two original William Klein prints were exhibited as part of the Kazuo Ohno Festival held by Kazuo Ohno Dance Studio and BankART1929. A booklet, Kazuo Ohno and Tatsumi Hijikata in the 1960s, was published around the same time. This interview was conducted by Toshio Mizohata, director of the Kazuo Ohno Dance Studio, with William Klein in Paris by telephone for the purpose of this booklet. This recorded interview is now available as part of one of our TRU exhibitions, Walking AR Experience: Dance Happening—Today.

I called you recently about the photographs, which you took of Kazuo Ohno and Tatsumi Hijikata.

I remember. I said yes.

Please let me ask you some questions about that period.

Go ahead.

What made you decide to photograph them?

Listen, hold on a second. There's a call on another line.

Hello, hello.

Yes.

How did you come to know of Ohno and Hijikata?

I was invited by a Japanese editor to Japan to work on a little book. I was unaware of the fact of how well known I was there. Most young photographers were influenced by my style and there were articles about me in the newspapers. Anyway, to answer your question, I was contacted by them.

They contacted you?

Yes, they contacted me. They asked me whether I would like to photograph them. They invited me to their studio so that we could have a shoot. I told them that it wasn't very interesting to shoot there, especially given that I liked the way they danced and everything. I suggested that it would be very amusing if we went out onto the streets. Anyway, we spent the day together.

I'm unsure how many pictures you have seen or if you saw the ones we took down into the subway, or in Ginza, or in some of the back streets. We just improvised and had fun. I think that it is perhaps the first street- happening that they ever did.

Anyway, we had fun. In Japan, unlike in New York, nobody ever reacted. The passers-by were very calm and so we were able to do as we wanted. We did all kinds of things on the subway. I took maybe, I don’t know, 200 photographs all around Tokyo.

You were unaware of who they were before this shoot?

Well, I didn't know much about Japan, and I certainly knew very little about Japanese dancers.

How did you like their way of dancing?

I thought they were great.

Did you realize that they were major figures in Japanese avant-garde dance?

No, I had never seen Butoh as there wasn't any possibility to see it in Europe. But you know something incredible. I made a film about a well-known French dancer called Jean Babilée. At 68 he decided to dance again. At that time, I was a producer and very excited about dance. I had always wanted to film him. And he too wanted me to do it. I'm not interested in classical ballet but when I met Babilée, he was such a wonderful fellow. At one point I thought it would be great to have this 68 year-old dancer perform together with Kazuo Ohno. I would have loved to film a scene in which they appeared together, but it never worked out as we didn't have enough money.

Yes, it was 10 years ago. I remember that you called us about it.

I forgot the reason Kazuo Ohno was coming to Europe. Anyway our project wasn't going to feature Julia Roberts so we didn't have the budget. So, we had to drop the idea.

Did you never get the chance to see Kazuo Ohno perform in Europe?

Never.

You only saw him in Tokyo in the 60s.

When in Tokyo, I photographed him in the street wearing a dress. He told me that he was inspired by Jean Genet's novel, Notre Dame de Fleurs. I showed the series to Jean Genet.

Really?

We were friends. He came to my house one night. I said, “Look, I took some photos in Japan. This dancer says that he was very influenced by your book.” Genet's reply was that he didn't understand.

How curious.

Well, Genet belonged to a different sphere. I don’t think he knew much about dance.

That’s interesting. How come you used that photograph in the beginning of your photo collection Tokyo?

When I work on a book layout, I do it by feeling. I started in 1955. I did my book on New York. When it came to the Tokyo book, I kept asking myself how photographs taken by somebody like me, who shoots in places he isn't familiar with, and doesn’t speak the language could in any way be meaningful? If I did a book about New York, I could decipher exactly what my photographs meant. But Tokyo was different. I’m unsure what the photographs evoke for a Japanese audience. It was my first experience taking photographs in a place I know nothing about.

Did you try to understand what they were trying to express?

No.

So you just felt what they did?

Yes, I just felt it.

That’s great. I think your photographs clearly illustrate what they were trying to do.

I only work on feeling. How else can one work? Who are you?

I've been working with Kazuo Ohno for over 20 years.

How old is he now?

99

Oh, no!

He will celebrate his 99th birthday on the 27th of October.

Oh, really?

And the festival opens on the 28th.

It was unfortunate that I was unable to do something with him. Babilée is 78 now and never really a career dancer. He was a very original man. So I can imagine the two aging men dancing together. Anyway, sorry, I have to go now.

Thank you very much. Do you plan to come to Japan again?

I dislike travelling. I had a show in Japan. Did you see it?

Sorry, I didn’t see it.

You aren't a devoted follower!

But I did get a hold of your books and also the DVD.

Very well then.

Thank you so much. I appreciate.

Ok, Good Bye!

William Klein with his wife Jeanne in Tokyo, 1961, photo: Hirao Endo